Featured Fine Russian Gilt Silver & Enamel Perfume Bottle - 5.5 inch

Discussion in 'Silver' started by laura9797, Jan 24, 2023.

  1. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    True, and not just the ones who worked for Fabergé.
    For centuries there were many German gold- and silversmiths in Russia. And of course the fabulous Norwegian experts in making perfect enamelled pieces.
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  2. IvaPan

    IvaPan Well-Known Member

    True but some of them used Cyrillic marks as far as I know. Anyway, if the TC can tell us the two letters of the maker's mark, it will be feasible to trace the name of the maker.
    Any Jewelry likes this.
  3. IvaPan

    IvaPan Well-Known Member

    Some more on the marks:

    I don't see any initials in the cartouche with kokoshnik, there should be И.Л. in Cyrillic if it was deciphered as cetrifier's Ivan Lebedkin mark. Maybe they are there and I just can't see them because of the photo quality.

    It can't be St. Petersburg city mark in the cartouche with 84 finess mark as Ivan Lebedkin was a certifier from Moscow. Better photos may help decipher the city mark.

    The kokoshnik head was turned left until 1908 and then turned right from 1908 till 1917. So the dating of this item if authentic is from 1908 till 1917.
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2023
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  4. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    I think we just need some photos specifically of the marks.
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  5. Iouri

    Iouri Well-Known Member

    I liked your opinion''IvanPan''
    IvaPan likes this.
  6. moreotherstuff

    moreotherstuff Izorizent

  7. IvaPan

    IvaPan Well-Known Member

    Edit, after Any's posting again of the mark, I think that the first letter is Ф with a dot followed by Р with a dot, and not R, as I previously thought. There is a maker from St. Petersburg with these initials (appears both in oval and square cartouche) - Ruch Fyodor Andreevich (Руч Федoр Андреевич) who used to make enamel and silver items till 1908. From here, a database with Imperial Russia (IR) silver and gold marks:

    1. His initials are given without dots
    2. He is from St.Petersburg which contradicts the assay marker/certifier Lebedkin from Moscow mentioned as already established truth in the first post. In the above database of IR marks there is no Moscow maker with such initials.
    3. He is given as a maker till 1908, and the Kokoshnik mark points that the item is after 1908.
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2023
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  8. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

  9. IvaPan

    IvaPan Well-Known Member

    About the city mark:
    The city mark next to 84 mark looks like a rider on a horse and holding something. If so:

    I read that the city mark of Moscow was the coat of arms of Moscow - till 1883 it was St. George - a rider on a horse with a spear aiming at a snake at the hoofs of the horse, and facing right. And this is what the city mark on the item looks like to me.
    But from 1883 till 1917 the coat of arm of Moscow was different, it was a rectangular shield with a crown and two crossed sceptres behind, and in its middle was the same rider but facing left. (here: https://f-gl.ru/гербы-стран-мира/герб-россии/гербы-регионов-россии/герб-москвы)
    So the kokoshnik mark tells 1908 onward, and the Moscow city mark tells 1883 backwards. Combined with what appears to be St Petersburg maker's initials. Something is not quite right there...
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2023
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  10. johnnycb09

    johnnycb09 Well-Known Member

    Super informative,thank you !
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  11. moreotherstuff

    moreotherstuff Izorizent

    Left to right, I'm seeing a kokoshnik assay mark, possibly for Kostroma, an unidentified maker's mark, and a pre-1908 84 zolotnik mark.


    note that that site identifies the circular kokoshnik assay mark as "struck as a garniture mark on small items or on auxillary parts of an ensemble en suite", which would include an item like this.
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  12. IvaPan

    IvaPan Well-Known Member

    Actually, the topic starter has stated that she has identified exactly the kokoshnik mark as the mark of Lebedkin, head of Moscow assay office. I commented that the only way this to be true is to have his initials И.Л. inside the kokoshnik mark - like here https://nummi.ru/kleimo/dop-kleima/kleymo-okruzhnyh-probirnyh-upravleniy-1899-1908-gg.-ru-11/
    I can't discern on the photos if this is the case. Assumed that the TS has seen these initials there. If so, the item was made in Moscow. If not...
    Then, I think the maker's initials are Ф.Р. , at least from what I see on the photos. And have pondered on that.
    And then, in the third cartouche, next to the 84 finess mark there should be the city mark. Which I also commented based on what I see.

    It will be really useful if the TS provides better photos of the marks or at least comments on our thoughts.

    After 1908 the kokoshnik head is looking right like on this item so it is not pre 1908 mark but after it. Pre 1908 kokoshnik head was looking left. Judging only by the kokoshnik, it is an item made after 1908.
    But there are some discrepancies in the marks on this item, which may be solved if better photos are provided. Or may not...

    I don't use English sites for Russian marks ID, only Russian ones. There are plenty of them. Kokoshni had been the assay mark used on IR jewelry and other silver and gold items from this period. After the October Revolution it had been used for a while and in 1924 it had been changed to a worker's head, and later to hammer and sickle.
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2023
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  13. moreotherstuff

    moreotherstuff Izorizent

    This mark is interesting.

    If that is another circular kokoshnik mark, it has a pretty clearly defined single dot at the back of the head. If that is correct, according to the site I posted earlier, that would indicate Caucasus.

    Last edited: Feb 1, 2023
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  14. IvaPan

    IvaPan Well-Known Member

    According to the Russian source, it is the Warsaw assay office. These marks were after 1908
    Warsaw office

    Edit, I see only one dot on the left in the middle, which is given as Warsaw office. If there is another dot on the right at the bottom, then Caucasus, Baku assay office, according to the above Russian source.

    On the picture of Caucasus office given by moreofthestuff in EN I see two dots - one at the left in the middle (back of the head) and another one on the right (below the chin of the head) at the bottom. This is what the Russian source also gives.
    Baku office Caucasus

    In any case, IMO
    1. there are too many contradictory marks on this item and
    2. The photo quality of the marks is not good enough for making more precise evaluation. Maybe some of the contradictions will be solved with better photos of the marks.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Feb 2, 2023
  15. moreotherstuff

    moreotherstuff Izorizent

    Warsaw is interesting. I think it makes the use of a Latin letter much more likely. I wouldn't get too hung up on the assayer's initials. Lots of people with different names have the same initials. It's not that uncommon.

    I certainly agree that better pictures are needed.
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  16. laura9797

    laura9797 Well-Known Member

    Good morning! Trying to get better pics from the photographer. I will definitely update! The reading has been very information!
  17. laura9797

    laura9797 Well-Known Member

    So I just looked at the photographer's photos and I can not access them to copy them to my server at home to share but I will tomorrow. There is a single dot behind the head indicating Warsaw after 1908.
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  18. IvaPan

    IvaPan Well-Known Member

    The mark with 84 finess (the rightmost one) does not look like Warsaw mark, it looks like Moscow assay mark. The coat of arms of Warsaw was different. Here you can see silver marks from Warsaw in Imperial Russia, the link is in Russian but the images can be seen on page 3 where a scan from a Polish reference book is shown.
    Атрибуция и оценка Ввозные?? клейма (Польша в составе РИ) - Страница 3 - Антик Форум – Оценка, продажа, покупка антиквариата - антикварный форум (antik-forum.ru)
    On page 4 of the same discussion is shown a hallmark of a Moscow maker- 56 gold finess, the mark of Moscow assay office (coat of arms of Moscow) and then assayer's initials.

    Form what I can see on this silver bottle, the mark next to 84 looks like the coat of arms of Moscow but before 1883.

    As I got it, the three marks are on the base of the bottle, and the single kokoshnik mark with Warsaw assay office is on the plug of the bottle. I.e. these are on two different parts of the bottle.
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2023
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  19. moreotherstuff

    moreotherstuff Izorizent

    I disagree, but it will take a clearer photo to be certain. I see no coat of arms in the 84 stamp - just a standard kokoshnik profile.
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  20. IvaPan

    IvaPan Well-Known Member

    If I got you right, you say that you see a kokoshnik head next to 84 on the right, in the third (from left to right) hallmark/stamp. Here you see a kokoshnik head, right?

    Just to be sure that I correctly understand your comment. Otherwise I do agree that we should wait for better pictures.
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2023
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